Bari Rolling sound Part II

Thanks to everyone who posted the first time I left this message.

I have taken all the suggestions to heart and came up with a plan.

There were 3 or 4 minor leaks that my repair man and I fixed.

We figured, Cured. WRONG!!!!

Still getting the rolling sound when I start playing a G and move down each not till I get to C.

My repair man started tinkering with the keys while he was playing. (Not using the finger pads.)

He found that if while playing these notes if you open up other keys that are closed, ie. C# and Eb. that the rolling sound goes away.

Does that sound like a venting problem??? It did to him.

So we started tinkering with the felt stops and such to open up the keys more. We made some progress. But it is still there. We even tried sticking a wallet in the bell just for kicks. Still have the rolling sound.

Does anyone have any more ideas on how to fix this problem??? This is a Jenkins Bari (Buescher private label) It was made in 1914.

I have been told that in the old horns this was a common problem.

Help, part II.

Thanks

Bob

Bob Davet

By opening up keys lower down the horn you're altering the node points within the bore of the horn - which is something that can be done by chucking a couple of wine corks down the bell. I'd still bet good money that this indicates a leak somewhere.

Did you try the horn at A440? Some horns can be picky about tuning, if you don't have the mouthpiece in or near the right place to give you a concert A in pitch they can sometimes complain a bit. Tried it with a different mouthpiece?

If you're absolutely sure that none of the pads are leaking then it's worth checking the soldered joints around the top bow. A pinhole leak here can make all the difference. Check too for blockages in the top bow - it can get pretty funky in there over time.

You mentioned that the horn was built in 1914 - is it a high pitch model? It could be that you ARE trying it at A440 - and it's putting up a corresponding fight!

There's absolutely no reason that age should determine whether a horn is prone to having a wobbly tone - I've restored many an original Adolph sax ( including quite a few baris ) and despite having to do battle with some appalling structural problems have still managed to get most of them to blow cleanly.

There's one way you can settle the problem once and for all, and that's to remove all the keys and seal all the tone holes with clingfilm ( takes a bit of doing! ). Assuming you haven't got a leak in the tubing itself this will tell you once and for all whether it's a problem with the horn's acoustics or the padding.

Stephen, I've never tried wrapping a horn- does this work with neck tenon or bow leaks too? Mark Bushaw

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It'll work for all kinds of non-pad based leaks - it's just a method of ensuring an absolute seal on all the tone holes. It's a hell of a job to get the film on though, so it's very much a last resort.

The horn is Stamped 'Low Pitch' and I have been trying it at A440.

I have tried 2 different mouth pieces.

First one is a 'Gregory 520M' It looks like a big pickle. When I tune to this MP it is about 1/2 way on the cork. The rolling sound will start with in 5 miutes of me playing.

The second one is is not marked. it is narrower than the first one. It is also about 1/4' longer. The bore for the neck is bigger. When I put this one on, I have to pull it almost all the way off to get it in tune. I use paper or teflon tape to make it fit the neck. The same thing will happen with the rolling sound within 5 minutes.

I tried an experiment with the second MP. I pushed it way on the cork till it fit by itself with no paper or teflon tape. Tried to tune with it, knowing it wasn't going to be close. I could tune with the G and the tuner was reading B. So I know I'm a half tone off. But, the rolling sound was not as previlent as when it was tuned to Bb.

The rolling sound was almost non-existent. The little that was there was controllable.

What is this telling me????

Bob

Bob Davet

But if you think you have a leaky joint, this method would be easier than most others. Mark Bushaw (sorry for getting off topic)

Better still, if you suspect a leaky joint, seal the buggers up with well-squished blue-tac. Manipulate the stuff under a small spotlight to get it sticky and pliable, then roll it out into a fat string and wrap it round the joints. Press it in and it'll seal the joints while you test.

The plastic wrap is more useful for testing acoustic errors.

My first thought would be to try yet another mouthpiece. You have the Gregory - which ought to be OK, but there's just a chance that it isn't ( at least with this horn ) and the other mouthpiece is a completely unknown quantity. I'd be inclined to bung on a basic student piece, such as the Yamaha 3c or 4c and see how it handles.

What this is telling you is that by playing the instrument excessively sharp you're forcing the nodes into a different position relative to the bore. One assumes that at one single point in the bore you have a critical hot-spot ( i.e. where your leak is ) and whilst it's not a big enough leak to stop the horn dead it's still enough to cause problems. When played in tune the node hits the critical spot dead on, when excessively sharp it just misses it.

OK, so this is a simplification, but at least it helps you to understand the possible problem.

I'm wondering whether it might not be down to some slight play in one of the auxiliary keys or the naturally closed ones.

Try this: Slice up some old wine corks into little wedges and use them to close up the following keys. Aux.B ( the little key above the top B key ) Side Bb and C G# Aux.F Side F# ( lower ) Low Eb

The problem can sometimes be a critical balance between the wear in a key and the strength of its spring. This means that to all intents and purposes the pad seals nicely - but as soon as you blow the horn the air pressure in the bore tips the balance in favour of the wear in the key and the pad lifts ever so slightly ( usually at the rear ) - and there's your leak, undetectable by light or feeler paper whilst the horn is not being played.

I have one more 'fix' you might try. Many horns benefit from careful selection of reflector - that's to say that whilst it looks neat and tidy for all the pad reflectors to be the same this doesn't always give you the most even tone. By using certain types of reflector you can lift the odd 'dead spot' or take down the occasional bright spot to achieve a better overall balance.

So, find yourself a couple of old reflectors and cut the stubs off...or at a pinch cut some discs out of a piece of foil backed thin card ( food packaging might be a good source for this ) and pop a small blob of blue-tac on the rear. Now pop one reflector on, say, the Aux.F key pad - then try the horn. Move the reflector down to the next pad if there's no improvement. Note down any that give slight improvement and if no single reflector works then try them on the two pads that gave the best results..and so on. Try to get the stick on reflectors as close onto the existing ones as you can and of approximately the same size ( you can repeat the experiment using oversize reflectors too...sometimes that helps ).

Good luck!

Great ideas, Steve.

I hesitate to add anything, but my money is on a naturally closed pad jumping open when played - I have this problem with the Eb on my selmer alto. The pad seals fine when the instrument is not being played, but subtone a low note and it wobbles enough to make notes below D breathy and uncertain. My solution was just to beef up the spring.

You can check is this is happening by lightly touching the key while you are getting the sound, and see if you can feel it move...use the side of a convenient finger or get your tech to check it. Or, as Steve suggests, hold the keys firmly closed with corks.

Nick

Perhaps it's telling you that the neck is too short (not the original). The attempts to fix the 'rolling' sound elsewhere could be failing because the problem resides at the neck. Have you discussed a neck extension? It takes a good repair tech to do that because it has to be properly fit and tapered, but it might be the solution.